RADIO FOUR TODAY PROGRAMME.
3rd May 2022, 8:10am
Presenter Martha Kearney tries to interview Keir Starmer.
Below is a transcript of a radio interview with Keir Starmer. Starmer spent several minutes waffling about windfall tax and expressing his reluctance to raise taxes and then the interviewer moved the focus onto defence spending, then beergate, and then onto Starmer's performance as leader.
This transcript illustrates that Starmer is incapable of giving a direct answer to certain questions.
This transcript might look a bit disjointed in parts. This is not because there are bits missing, it's because he simply didn't answer the questions.
At the end of the interview he was given an opportunity to promote his personality. He demonstrated that he didn't actually have one and that the only thing that motivated him was his appetite for power.
MK: When millions of people head to vote in the local elections this Thursday of course they will be thinking about what's happening in their own area; education, transport, care for children and elderly people. But the elections will also be a test of support for the national parties. It has been a torrid time for Boris Johnson with those calls for his resignation from Conservative MPs. Well, Conservatives have fallen in the opinion polls since its last round of local elections but it does seem their support seems to be switching to the Liberal Democrats. So how much is the Labour leader Sir Keir starmer seen as a credible alternative? Is he cutting through to voters? There has been some criticism, voiced most recently by Alistair Campbell, that people don't know what Labour policies are. Let's see whether we can find a bit more about them. We are joined now here in our studio by Keir Starmer, leader of the Labour Party. Good morning.
KS: Good morning.
MK: We've been covering a lot on the programme this morning with the results from BP, the energy company, and I know that you've been pushing very strongly for a windfall tax but do you worry about the kind of consequences that that tax might bring?
KS: We've said that the cost of living crisis is the number one issue and in the last few weeks and months I've been with our Labour campaign teams across the whole of the United Kingdom and the issue that comes up over and over again is "I can't afford to pay my bills". It's the single most pressing issue keeping people up at night. And political parties have to have an answer to that problem because not only have bills gone up but the government has CHOSEN to impose more tax on people in the middle of a cost of living crisis.
MK: I'm going to come onto the tax issue but first on the windfall tax specifically because one of the groups of people who are having difficulty with the cost of living crisis are pensioners and a lot of BP money goes in dividends goes to pension funds and if you tax those there is a possible knock-on effect for pensioners.
KS: Yes, so our answer on the energy bills crisis is that we should have a windfall tax on oil and gas companies in the North Sea in relation to the profits they didn't expect to make because the global prices have been so high. So nobody's quarreling with the argument that oil and gas companies need to make a profit so they can reinvest and do the other things they need to do. What we want to tax the EXCESS profit they make because global prices are so high. And to USE that to reduce energy bills by up to six hundred pounds for those most in need. So a very PRACTICAL answer to the most pressing question.
MK: But one person's excess profit is money for investment not just in renewable energy but also to invest in new oil and gas fields and we know from the crisis, if we are seeing an international crisis, how important energy security is. Is it right to be taking money away from those companies at the moment?
KS: Well, of course there needs to be investment for renewables, of course we need a much stronger energy security strategy, but what we're talking about here is the profit that the companies didn't expect to make. Now when their own chief executives and directors are saying "we've got more money than we know what to do with" we're effectively a cashpoint, a cash machine, then we're in the realms of taxing a windfall tax, that money which they didn't expect to make. So it doesn't affect the ordinary investment that you would expect from the oil and gas companies. But choices have to be made when people can't pay their bills.
MK: And one of your other proposals is to oppose the rise in National Insurance. But the argument against that is that actually National Insurance is a fair way of raising money. Those who earn more pay more.
KS: No it isn't. It's not a fair way of raising money. I'll say two things about it. Firstly, the TIMING is wrong because we're in the middle of a cost of living crisis. No other G7 country is raising tax, raising tax in the middle of a cost of living crisis. And for so many people, hundreds of pounds have gone on their bills, particularly the energy bills and they've seen that over the last few weeks. And then in the last few months they've opened up their PAYSLIP to see they've got less money coming in because the government has CHOSEN to tax them in the middle of a cost of living crisis.
MK: What the government has also done is to change the threshold on that so that the people who earn less than 35 thousand will actually see those National Insurance bills drop, that's according to research from the Institute for Fiscal Studies.
KS: Well, most families will be much worse off. On the question of FAIRNESS let me just give you an example. If you are someone with MANY properties as a landlord, many many properties, you don't pay a penny more. If you're the tenant, in work, you pay more on your National Insurance. I have not found anybody yet who has said to me 'Keir, that seems fair to me'. It is so patently unfair.
MK: Can you just address the issue brought up by the IFS that because of changes to the rate in which National Insurance kicks in, the threshold as it's called, people earning less than 35 thousand pounds will see their bills actually drop.
KS: Well obviously that's a change that the government has made but it doesn't affect the fact that overall the cost of this government is that families will be two thousand pounds worse off. And the government's got no answer.
MK: But not due to the National Insurance rise that you're opposing?
KS: The National Insurance rise is going to hit working people in the middle of a cost of living crisis.
MK: But it's also going down?
KS: There's a REASON why the other G7 countries are not increasing tax in the middle of a cost of living crisis and that's because they know it's self-defeating. It's not only people in work it's businesses that are being hit with this tax. It's the wrong tax at the wrong time.
MK: But you know the reason for bringing in the tax and that's to raise more money for health and social care. Twelve billion pounds a year, in fact. Presumably you'd support that; you know all the problems in the social care system. How would you raise that twelve billion pounds instead?
KS: Well, the reason for bringing in the tax is because we've got such low growth. The Achilles heel of the economy over the last twelve years has been low growth. It's been appalling growth under this government for twelve years. We're paying higher tax because we're low growth. Beyond covid, beyond the devastation in Ukraine there is a decade of low growth which has got us into an economy with low growth high tax. It's actually a failed economic strategy.
MK: That may well be the case. But, getting growth up again will take time. I'm talking about the big hole that there is both in the social care budget and in the NHS right now. How would you fund that?
KS: Well, the tax this year that's being opposed is intended to raise about twelve billion pounds, as you say. It is staggering to learn that during the pandemic 11.8 billion pounds was lost, either to fraud or bad contracts and the government isn't clawing it back. So I just gently say this. A lot of that money will be used to backfill a black hole caused by the government's incompetence. They're not even going after that.
MK: OK, but whatever the causes of that, and all the arguments, I just wanted to know how you will find the money, this vitally needed money for health and social care.
KS: Oh, we would have a fair tax system that would look across the board at how people make their money. Not just working people in work. Not just businesses paying National Insurance, but stocks and shares and dividends. We would look across the ... at a fair tax system to raise the necessary monies.
MK: So you would raise taxes, but in a different way, to get that twelve billion pounds?
KS: We would use a fair way, according to... We would be fair to working people.
MK: But will you be able to get enough from stocks and shares?
KS: We would AGGRESSIVELY go after that money lost in fraud and the money lost to bad contracts. I don't think that we can just say "it's 11.8 billion pounds, let's put that on one side and raise tax to raise 12 billion pounds. I think most people who are looking at their payslip, seeing that they are paying more money would say "I would expect my government to go AGGRESSIVELY after those people who DEFRAUDED the country"
MK: You just hope that you will get the 12 billion pounds back, but the suspicion must be, as you say, that you would raise taxes or raise borrowing, but you are so opposed to this rise in National Institute that if you were elected Prime Minister would you reverse it?
KS: We absolutely would not impose it at the moment. It's the wrong tax at the wrong time.
MK: That's not what I asked.
KS: What we will do when we get towards an election is set out all our proposals in relation to spend and cost. The first thing we would do is to set out a plan for growing the economy because before you get to spend the tax you've got to grow the economy. We will set all that out but I can tell you right here right now we would not be imposing this tax at this time. It's self defeating; businesses know this. They are saying "it's making it harder for us going forward". And that is why the other G7 countries aren't doing it.
MK: I do want to move you on now, if I may, to Ukraine. We know that the Prime Minister is speaking to the Ukranian Parliament today. He is pledging more money to send weapons to Ukraine. I assume you support that. I was also wondering whether you think there is now a case more generally for an increase in defence spending.
KS: Well, I've seen the announcement from the Prime Minister and we support the provision of more military equipment to Ukraine; and whatever the ups and downs of local elections and the timing of this particular announcement, I think that for all of those suffering in Ukraine they need to see political parties in the United Kingdom standing together in support of Ukraine.
MK: So you don't have questions about the timing?
KS: Well it's interesting that it's two days before the local elections but when I think of the images coming out Ukraine, the bombing of maternity hospitals etc, I don't think our arguments about the timing cut much ice. On the substance, we support the provision of military equipment, I've been clear on that, and we've had intelligence briefing from the government and I think in principle the position of all political parties to stand UP for Ukraine, stand WITH Ukraine and stand against Russian aggression is very important. I do want the government to go further on things like sanctions, they need to go further and faster and the refugee situation needs to be sorted out much much more quickly
MK: Looking more broadly at the Russian threat, the question I asked you originally was whether you'd support the idea of increasing defence spending to move beyond the current target which is 2 percent of national income because of the kind of threat that President Putin imposes not just to Ukraine but more generally across Europe.
KS: I do think the government is going to have to come back to Parliament and look again at spending, I know that many conservative MPs think that as well.
MK: that's interesting; would you go as high as three percent?
KS: I'd also say that the government at the moment is proposing to cut a further ten thousand or so from our armed services; I think they are wrong to do that and I call on them not to do it. There is now a clamour for the government to come back to Parliament and look again at defence spending AND the defence strategy, frankly.
MK: So you would support the calls by a select committee and other Conservative MPs to increase our share of national income on defence?
KS: Well I think the government needs to come back and we need to look at the proposals.
MK: If you want to be Prime Minister then you can have your own view.
KS: Look, the government needs to come back and we need to look at what they put before us and the we will take a view on it
KS: On the question of Ukraine and the situation we find ourselves in, there is nothing Putin wants more than to see political parties fighting each other and divided. We're not going to let that happen; there's nothing Putin wants more than to see Nato allies all falling out with each other; we're not going to allow that to happen. The Labour Party under my leadership is absolutely resolute on these international issues.
MK: Understood, of course, although we are in the midst of an election campaign, lots of claims, counter-claims being made throughout this. One of these is about - and it's a long running issue - whether you broke the rules during lockdown and I just wondered if you could clear up something for us. Has there been any contact with you or your office from Durham police since Conservative MPs called for inquiries to be re-opened?
KS: We were working in the office; it was just before elections; we were busy; we paused for food; no party; no rules were broken; that is the long and the short of it; all that's happened in the last week is that with local elections on the horizon Conservative MPs have decided to chuck mud. I can see why they are doing it.
MK: ...but you are questioning Boris Johnson in the House of Commons about these kind of issues and I know that you haven't answered MY question which is about contact from Durham police. Has there been any contact with you or the office in recent weeks?
KS: The police looked at this months ago and came to a clear conclusion that no rules were broken; and that's because no rules were broken.
MK: That's not quite what I asked. I just wondered whether they've been back in touch since the local MPs were raising questions about it.
KS: Well look, they've already concluded their investigation; no rules were broken and this is simply being whipped up as mud slinging by the Tories
MK: But you must remember whether the police have rung up your office?
KS: If the Conservative Party put as much effort into answering the question "how are you going to help people with their energy bills?" as they've put into this mud slinging then they would actually do a service for millions of people who are really worried about their energy bills.
MK: But by not answering questions like mine, aren't you adding to the clouds of doubt around this?
KS: We were working; we stopped for food; no party; no rules were broken. I don't know what I can add to that.
MK: And you went back to work, did you, after the beer?
KS: Yes. And the idea that nobody works at 10 o'clock at night is absurd
MK: I want to look more generally at your leadership. You've been leader for two years; and lots of problems for the government, calls for Boris Johnson to go, all sorts of issues, but it does seem, looking at the opinion polls - the broad sweep, not individual ones - Labour support has remained broadly the same, hovering around 40 percent. Is that something that you worry about?
KS: I look at the two years since I have been leader and when I took over we were something like 20 points or so behind the government in the opinion polls. We are now in a position where we're just ahead. I'm very aware that opinion polls go up and down and therefore we don't put too much store on them. But that is a remarkable turnaround for the Labour party in a two year period, during which time we CHANGED the Labour Party profoundly. I said I would tear out antisemitism, we've made huge progress on that, we're absolutely resolute and clear what our position is in terms of our unshakeable support of Nato. We changed our relation with businesses; we are pro business; we've got a strong partnership.
MK: ... which is the rhetoric but is it translating through to votes? You lost the Hartlepool by-election, you only JUST held onto Batley and Spen. Doubts remain, don't they, about the Labour Party and about your leadership.
KS: Any objective observer would say look, in the course of two years the new team leading the Labour Party headed by Keir Starmer has brought about INCREDIBLE change of the Labour Party
MK: ...and change in viewpoint as well, from the left to the right?
KS: ... and we are now in a position where we are just ahead in the polls; that is remarkable in two years. What we've now got is thousands of activists out on the doorsteps every day. I think we had two million conversations with people on their doorstep, a very positive case from a very positive team; we've got wind in our sails and obviously we're in to the final 48 hours before the local elections
MK: Are people still sure of what you stand for because when you stood for Labour leader it was on pretty much a left wing ticket? You promised common ownership. I was looking at the pledge you made in the past, not long ago, public service should be in public hands not making profits for shareholders. Is that still your policy position?
KS: When you say "are people clear what you stand for?" the answer that everybody wants at the moment is "what are you going to do about my energy bill?". People want to know "What's your answer to my problem right now? (which is my energy bill)". Our answer is windfall tax on oil and gas companies in the North Sea. We will use that to take 600 off those who need it most and don't whack people... and when we give that answer to people they LIKE it. They LIKE it, they think it's the right policy.
MK: They may well do and that's why I devoted a lot of attention to it at the very beginning of the interview. And I'm trying to get an answer from you on something you said very recently which is about you promising common ownership; that public services should be in public hands. What's your answer to that now?
KS: The immediate problem is to deal with the bills people face and when we get closer to the election we will set out our manifesto, a fully costed manifesto
MK: ...nationalisation?
KS: I don't think nationalisation is the answer to the current crisis that we're in. You know, will we set out our plans? Of course we will.
MK: And finally, we are in an age of personality politics. How would you describe yourself to a voter who may not feel a connection, who might think "Oh he's that London lawyer"?
KS: Determined to change your life for the better. I came into politics not to be in opposition, but to be in power, to change the lives of millions of people for the better. I'm absolutely determined to do that. You don't do that from opposition. You do that by winning elections. And I'm UTTERLY focused on winning elections.
MK: Sir Keir Starmer, Labour leader, Many thanks for talking to us
The full interview is available until 25th May 2022 on the BBC website. Try this link, 2hrs 10min into the recording
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0016xj0